[Chevelle-list] What oil to use.

[Rick Schaefer]

  Interesting & educational.   Seems like all references were to flat
tappets, so am I correct in assuming this does not effect roller cams?  Are
all/most new cars roller cammed?

On 9/9/07, Daniel Solomon <dansolomon at msn.com> wrote:
>
> There was a good article on this in June 07's Hot Rod magazine. As of 2006
> Shell Rotella T oils still had the ZDDP but there are plans to phase it out
> of this as well.
> Best news in the article was that Quaker State's line of Q Racing
> synthetic oils are formulated with all the necessary anti friction additives
> to keep our engines alive. We just have to find out where they sell it.
> Another option was to add a 4 oz bottle of GM camshaft and lifter pre-lube
> with each oil change of API SM/GF-4 street oil. The GM part number is
> 12345501. It will put back in the additives to save our flat tappets.
>
> Dan Solomon
> For those out there that won't stand behind our Troops...
> They are always welcome to stand in front of them!
> http://www.freewebs.com/chevelles1970/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: 66_malibu at sbcglobal.net
> To: chevelle-list at chevelles.net
> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 07:04:13 -0400
> Subject: [Chevelle-list] What oil to use.
>
> *I  just ran across this article and found it interesting. Thought I'd
> pass it on. It's a little long but worth the read.*
> **
>
>
>
>
> OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!
> By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
>
>
> About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP)
> in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high
> pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in
> supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates
> reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and
> introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
>
> A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
> totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
> them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft regrinder and asked how this
> could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to
> have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
> disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing
> that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many
> engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break
> in procedures.
>
> This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers.
> Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API (American Petroleum
> Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
>
> Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance
> (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during
> break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an unreasonably
> short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat
> tappet engines.
>
> Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
> (Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
> use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued
> to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to
> test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones
> that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants
> possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products,
> but it seems to be true for our cars. To top this off: Our representative
> from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped
> by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This
> was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem
> to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and
> phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They
> are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive
> put
> in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of
> molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the
> time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is
> all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo
> or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.
> This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)
> Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion
> with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.
>
> OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!
>
> Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing
> and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older
> British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of
> this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that
> couldn't rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He
> has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the
> "bad news" we have been finding. Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat
> Tappet Camshafts". They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The
> telling sentence in the bulletin was "While this additive was originally
> developed specifically for break-in benefits of its long term use. This
> special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against
> premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial
> ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off
> the–shelf oil".
>
> Next question: Now what do we do?
>
> From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use",
> Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality
> petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc
> dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.
>
> From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for at least
> the first 500 miles.
>
> From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your
> oil, it's only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This
> problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).
>
> From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we
> need!
>
> From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline
> and Industrial oils: "After over a week of contacts we have verified that
> the major oil companies are aware of the problem". "The representatives of
> the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no
> knowledge of formulation". The only major oil companies they were aware of
> for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an "Off
> Road 20W-50" and Redline.
>
> From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It
> may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are
> Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.
> Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do?
> After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and
> stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by
> British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as
> we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40
> years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3
> years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual
> cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a
> 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change
> interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many
> other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the
> fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to
> offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils
> that they produce.
>
> Part II.
>
> Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of
> the iceberg!
> Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate
> (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications
> have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with
> their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.
>
> I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the
> industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very
> reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our
> cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our cars,
> just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not
> appropriate for our cars today, some still are.
>
> Now for the latest report:
>
> #1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40,
> 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any
> Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle,
> these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy
> our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.
>
> #2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil
> has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams
> and tappets.
>
> #3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W- 50 approaches the levels of
> protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are
> attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as
> these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and
> has the additive package we need.
>
> #4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
> increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation" oils
> that we cannot use.
>
> #5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
> engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
> long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
> burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
>
> #6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
> increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals
> degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution.
> We don't have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that
> significant for most of us. For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar
> molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to
> "Stand" the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat
> and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of
> the cam and tappet from contacting each other.
>
> Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because
> the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also
> present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need
> for ZDDP in diesel engines. Second part of the equation is Molybdenum
> disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very
> slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the
> moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness
> of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but
> necessary. Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on
> Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30
> Castrol. New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do
> best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.
>
>
>


-- 
Rick Schaefer
72 TPI El Camino
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://chevelles.net/pipermail/chevelle-list_chevelles.net/attachments/20070909/eafdfbd2/attachment-0001.html